Well, let's return now to the war in
Ukraine. As the country marks its
Independence Day, King Charles and world
leaders have sent messages of support to
President Silinski to mark 34 years
since the nation declared independence
from the Soviet Union. Well, I'm pleased
to say joining us now is Britain's first
national security adviser. It's Lord
Peter Ricketts. Very good morning to
you, sir.
>> Good morning.
Uh you have said in the past that by
invading Ukraine, Putin actually
enlarged NATO. Looking back over these
last three years, what's your sense now?
>> I think it's important to remember that.
I mean, we get reports that the Russians
are gradually making progress on the
ground in Ukraine. But if you look at
the big picture, they've really lost
badly already because one of the things
they did not want was more NATO closer
to Russia. Well, they've got Finland and
Sweden in NATO now. They would never
have joined if it hadn't been for the
war. And they've also got new
determination by the Europeans to up
their spending on defense, um, to take
on more responsibility and to stand with
Ukraine. So, I think in the big picture,
Russia has in an important sense already
lost and Ukraine is now going to be a
pro-Western democratic country, you
know, for the long term. Of course,
we've got all kinds of problems in
getting from here to there, but I think
it's worth remembering that when often
the news from Ukraine can be bleak and
especially on this national day of the
country.
>> So, having said that, Lord Ricketts, do
you believe that Putin really
miscalculated?
>> Oh, yes, I do. Absolutely. I mean,
there's talk now of the Russians have
had a million casualties killed and
wounded. Of course, Ukraine has suffered
hundreds of thousands as well, and he's
achieved none of his objectives. Um, and
indeed, as I say, I think he's probably
created a a pro-western Ukraine. So,
yes, I think he's miscalculated badly.
It was his war, his obsession to try and
wipe Ukraine off the map, to stop it
being an independent sovereign country.
Now, he's faced with a more united NATO.
Um, Europe determined to defend itself
and Ukraine. And we can only have
enormous admiration, I think, today, for
the stamina and the resilience of the
civilians of Ukraine who've been under a
kind of blitz attack on their towns and
villages for three and a half years. How
they've survived, I don't know, but
they're still up for defending their
freedom, and it's absolutely crucial.
Countries like the UK should give them
what is needed to do that. Um, and what
did you make of President Silinsk's very
recent meeting at the Oval Office? Of
course, flanked by European leaders. Did
you think that was the right step or or
just perhaps theater?
>> No, I think it was more than theater. Of
course, it came after that meeting
between Trump and Putin in Alaska where
Trump seemed to swing towards the
Russian view of events um and to be
accepting the Russian narrative that
there've got to be a long complicated
negotiation for some sort of wider peace
deal. Uh I think that meeting in the
Oval Office, first of all, was far
better than the awful car crash we had
in March when Silinsky uh was in the
Oval Office. And I think the fact that
the European leaders got on their planes
at very short notice, were there to show
him solidarity helped to ensure that was
a much more friendly, respectful,
productive meeting with Trump and then
there was the collective meeting with
the Europeans as well. However, I mean
Trump really tends to swing towards the
view of the person he's talked to most
recently. So right now he seems to be
back accepting that he has to stand with
Ukraine, help the Europeans to defend
Ukraine, but we can't guarantee that
that will stay the case. And it's still
possible that Trump will decide to walk
away and leave Ukraine to fight Russia,
in which case the Europeans have just
got to do even more to support the
Ukrainians in their fight. At the end of
the day, Ukraine coming out of this
stronger and independent is part of
Europe security as well. So that's why
we need to go on standing behind Ukraine
even if the Americans decide they've
tried to make peace, they failed and
Trump walks away.
>> And Lord Ricketts, you have raised the
very important question of these
so-called European security guarantees
in Ukraine and what they actually mean
and and whether in fact they could deter
Putin in the future.
>> I think it's really important that we
understand what they really mean. Of
course, we all want to support Ukraine,
but security guarantees could mean
you're saying we will be with you and if
Russia attacks Ukraine again after a
settlement, we will go to war with
Russia on your behalf. If that's what
they mean, then I think Western
politicians have got to explain that
really carefully to the British public,
the British Parliament and European
Parliaments as well, because I'm not
sure the people understand that that is
a possibility. If security guarantees
means we undertake, we will stand with
you, we will support you, we will give
you the weapons you need, the economic
support, we'll help you train the army,
but at the end of the day, we're not
saying that we're going to war go to war
to support Ukraine. That's another
thing. Of course, the Ukrainians would
like to be sure that European countries
would be behind them if they were again
attacked by Russia, but that's a very,
very serious commitment to take on. The
best way of giving them that guarantee
would be to bring them into NATO. And I
strongly support doing that. I know
President Trump says he's not prepared
to support that. It won't happen in his
presidency. It's not going to happen
soon. But if Ukraine has earned anything
through these three and a half years,
it's the right to decide their own
future, their own security. And I think
joining NATO one day, joining the
European Union would be the best way to
give them that security guarantee that
all their Western allies stand firmly
behind them.
>> Lord Ricketts, we will leave it there,
but a great pleasure to talk to you this
morning. Thank you.
>> Thank